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One for the older readers, perhaps, but John Wilkinson has a pub quiz question about his hometown football club.

鈥淐an you name three England captains who have played for Scunthorpe United?鈥� he asks. Now in the National League, England鈥檚 fifth tier, the team is nicknamed the Iron 鈥� a reference to the Lincolnshire town鈥檚 industrial heritage, and especially its links to the steel-making industry.

鈥淲hen I was growing up,鈥� the 54-year-old says, 鈥渢here were three steelworks in the town, now鈥檚 there鈥檚 only one. Scunthorpe had around 25,000 steelworkers back then.鈥�

Wilkinson started out as a trainee engineer at Clugtson in 1988, working and learning 鈥� finishing ONC and HNC qualifications during his time there 鈥� before later completing a construction management degree at Reading university in 2005.

鈥淚f you were from Scunthorpe, it was either Clugston or Birse,鈥� he remembers. He spent five years at Clugston.

Both firms are no longer around. Clugston went under at the end of 2019 after more than 80 years in business while Birse, set up by Peter Birse in the 1970s, was bought by Balfour Beatty in 2006.

Now, more than 30 years on, he is nearly 18 months into running a 拢2.8bn turnover firm as chief operating officer, a newly created role, of Bam鈥檚 UK and Ireland business.

I think it was Branson who said, 鈥榠f you鈥檙e given an opportunity and you don鈥檛 know how to do it, take it and then learn how to do it鈥�

鈥淚鈥檝e been lucky and been given some great opportunities,鈥� he says. 鈥淵ou always have a bit of self-doubt but I don鈥檛 know who it was 鈥� I think it was [Richard] Branson 鈥� who said, 鈥榠f you鈥檙e given an opportunity and you don鈥檛 know how to do it, take it and then learn how to do it鈥�.鈥�

Wilkinson鈥檚 career has included spells at Kier and Laing O鈥橰ourke before he took his family to Canada in 2017 to work for engineer SNC Lavalin, the Montreal-based firm probably best known in this country for buying Atkins six years ago for 拢2.1bn.

鈥淎 warm day in Montreal in the winter was minus 12, but then in the summer you had temperatures into the 40s.鈥�

He enjoyed it, but illnesses in his wife鈥檚 family threw the spotlight on how far they were away from the UK, and especially Lorie鈥檚 native North-east.

He spent three years in Canada before relocating back to Europe to work for Bam, initially in charge of its civils business at the firm鈥檚 headquarters at Bunnik, near Utrecht, in the Netherlands.

At the time, Bam was undergoing a major rejig 鈥� shutting its international business, pulling out of Germany and closing bits of its Belgium business 鈥� to focus on three core geographies: its native Netherlands, along with the UK and Ireland.

Under this, the new COO post was created and Wilkinson is now in charge of 5,500 people and reports into chief executive Ruud Joosten. He also sits on a four-man executive committee that includes Joosten, the chief financial officer, Frans den Houter, and Wilkinson鈥檚 equivalent in the Netherlands, Joost Nelis.

Bam has a target called five and five which, unpicked, is a 鈧�5bn (拢4.4bn) turnover and an operating margin of 5%.

The issue of margins, and what is a realistic return, has long vexed the industry and Wilkinson says: 鈥淲e need to be profitable and sustainable as a business [in order to] invest in innovation and all those good bits and pieces.

If you鈥檙e only focused on price, that鈥檚 when people take shortcuts

鈥淒o you want to work for a client who only values you because you can pour a cubic metre of concrete for a quid cheaper than somebody else? In the nicest possible way, no. They are not the sort of clients I want to work for.

鈥淚 want to work for clients who recognise we need to make a reasonable return but, at the same time, also recognise they can trust us to do what we say we鈥檙e going to do and give them a quality end product. If you鈥檙e only focused on price, that鈥檚 when people take shortcuts.鈥�

Wilkinson says clients and contractors need to work out beforehand what is fair in terms of risk. 鈥淭here is always risk in the project until you have completed the design. Design is everything鈥�

鈥淥nce the design is completed, then we should be on the hook to deliver the production rates we promised. That鈥檚 what we should be able to do.鈥�

But he says some clients continue to chance their arms and try and load too much risk onto the contractors. 鈥淭here are things that are out of our control. Yes, we have to demonstrate value for money, but who could have predicted the inflation rates we鈥檙e seeing and the impact of covid and war?鈥�

He says he has seen some terms where clients have tried to write in frankly impossible demands. 鈥淚 can be cost predictable in the things we can control; where I can鈥檛 commit is with these clients who say, 鈥榗ovid was one thing so we want you to take all the pandemic risk moving forward鈥�. I can鈥檛 predict that.

鈥淗ow are you ever going to price in something like that? And, if you do, then you become unaffordable so you are basically wasting your time.鈥�

If you鈥檙e working on margins of 2%, then your ability to invest is limited

Mark Robinson, the head of procurement specialist Scape, recently told this magazine that mandating margins on public sector contracts would mean everyone could concentrate on doing the best job possible, without needless argy-bargy before, during and after a job.

鈥淚 could very much support that,鈥� Wilkinson says. 鈥淚f you鈥檙e working on margins of 2%, then your ability to invest is limited. We seem to fail to fundamentally grasp that predictability of return for everybody is really, really important.鈥�

He would like to see the government adopt a more long-term strategy towards construction so that those working in it can get surety of work. And he says too much time is still spent talking about jobs, rather than getting on and building them.

He says Crossrail, now called the Elizabeth line, is the perfect example of this. Bam鈥檚 civils鈥� arm, Nuttall, worked on the job with Kier and Spanish firm Ferrovial, a role it has reprised with the same firms and French firm Eiffage on HS2.

Crossrail ended up being late and hugely over budget, but Wilkinson says: 鈥淐rossrail was 20 years in the thinking and then it鈥檚 like, 鈥榞ive the contractors six months to price it and then get on with the build鈥�. Our expertise is not being leveraged enough.

鈥淐rossrail was so far at the cutting edge of technology, but you have to accept that, when you鈥檙e pushing the boundaries of technology and innovation, there are certain things you can鈥檛 predict and we don鈥檛 build enough float into this. If a project lasts 10 years, how are you going to predict what happens in years eight, nine and 10?鈥�

While the debate about margins shows that some things have not changed too much during Wilkinson鈥檚 time in contracting, there are clear differences between when he started in the late 1980s and now.

鈥淚t was a very technical type of industry in the sense that, if you hadn鈥檛 studied physics at A level, you were never going to get on a construction-related degree course. As the industry has modernised through digital and technology, we鈥檙e employing people who have got backgrounds in things like gaming. That traditional academic route into this industry was quite important when I graduated but it鈥檚 nowhere near as important now, I don鈥檛 think.鈥�

This has opened up avenues into a sector seen as the preserve of men. 鈥淭he diversity and inclusion piece is enormous. The industry has got a lot more professional. Dare I say it, when I started if you were a carpenter and you had five fingers, you weren鈥檛 really a carpenter.

鈥淭he professional side of the industry is attracting different talent. We鈥檙e attracting a lot more females in terms of engineers. Before, it just used to be the traditional female roles like HR.鈥�

[Gender diversity] is not my skillset but I have an obligation to improve my knowledge around that

As more and more change has appeared, Wilkinson has had to adapt as well to issues such as identity politics. 鈥淚 think there鈥檚 89 recognised ways in which people can identify now [according to the website Sexual Diversity there are 105]. I don鈥檛 need to know all 89 but I just need to understand it.

鈥淲hen I joined, construction was a very stereotypical sort of industry and I came from Scunthorpe, which was full of steelworkers. [Gender diversity] is not my skillset but I have an obligation to improve my knowledge around that.鈥�

It鈥檚 a long way, he admits, from the early days in 鈥渟unny Scunny鈥� as it is still  sometimes known. 鈥淩ugby is my sport and it鈥檚 like the All Blacks mantra of 鈥榣eave the jersey in a better place鈥�. I want to do that for Bam and the industry.

鈥淭he industry does so much for society and, to a degree, it鈥檚 pretty overlooked. I know I don鈥檛 know everything 鈥� and the day I convince myself I do know everything is the day I should retire.鈥�

While the oval ball might be more his bag than the round one, he still keeps an eye out for Scunthorpe United鈥檚 results. And the answer to that pub quiz question and those England captains who turned out for the Iron?

Kevin Keegan, the late Ray Clemence and Ian Botham, the former England cricket captain, who played 11 games for the club in between batting, bowling and being a cricketing equivalent of Roy of the Rovers. A set of answers, then, to store away for the next quiz at the local.