好色先生TV

To kick things off, what do you think is one of the keys to attracting and retaining a diverse workforce?

Dara Jafari (DJ): I feel like I cannot understate the importance of role models. In our business, we鈥檝e recently increased the number of diverse hires and our retention numbers have been really positive. So, the EDI lead for Atkins approached me and said: 鈥淗ey what is it you鈥檙e doing differently this year, your targets are good? And you鈥檙e doing really well in terms of your hiring? What is it you think you鈥檙e doing right?鈥� I would have loved to have gone back with, 鈥淚t鈥檚 because of this diverse hiring panel that we鈥檝e got, or because we鈥檝e approached X Y, Z in this manner.鈥� But genuinely, I think the shift within our company has been the rise of internal role models and those role models being really visible externally and talking about their roles and how much they enjoy it.

I know certainly growing up myself, I always thought that being in the construction industry, or being in this field was just a means for me to earn a living. I didn鈥檛 really see that I could reach highs and be a leader in a business. I look back and I am that person now, which still surprises me, but what I love is that I鈥檝e become a role model and that鈥檚 so humbling.

If you鈥檙e from a diverse background and underrepresented group and you鈥檙e in the construction sector, you鈥檙e a role model. Whatever position you鈥檙e in, you are a role model to some extent, because you represent a very small minority of the construction industry, meaning you鈥檝e had to overcome barriers to get there and you鈥檙e still overcoming them now.

That makes perfect sense but for firms who are struggling, how do you go about addressing that? Because if you don鈥檛 have those role models, how do you go about getting that into the business?

DJ: I think that the answer isn鈥檛, 鈥榣et鈥檚 just make some diverse hires鈥� at senior leadership levels, I don鈥檛 think that鈥檚 the answer. If you can do that in a non-biased way, then great. But if you鈥檙e having issues that suggests to me, you鈥檙e probably not able to do that, for whatever reason. It鈥檚 going take time as a firm, but you need to start at grass roots, and really cast a wide net. You need to think about what would make the firm appealing to a diverse range of people, really think about the audience and the content that you鈥檙e putting out.

 

It can鈥檛 just constantly be about putting out content about technical expertise and professionalism, because for the new generation of people, that鈥檚 not as important to them - they can learn all that in a second. What鈥檚 important to people now is cultures and values.

 

Once you鈥檝e identified that you鈥檝e got a diverse talent pipeline, you really need to have good structures in place to make sure that that talent is being nurtured and in the right way, and it鈥檚 not too in your face. It can鈥檛 be 鈥業鈥檓 going to nurture this talent, because you鈥檙e from a diverse background鈥�. It needs to be that if they鈥檙e good at their job make sure they鈥檙e getting the right attention, the right training and that they鈥檝e got the appetite as well.

It is going to take time and I鈥檓 talking years, but you will start seeing more talented people from diverse backgrounds in senior roles eventually and once you鈥檝e got that, and you鈥檙e demonstrating it, shout about it. That鈥檚 how we鈥檙e in the position that we are.

On that nurturing talent piece, what do you think are some of the other challenges to retention of people from underrepresented backgrounds?

DJ: If I look around me at the director level, there are really not many other people that are, strictly speaking, from an ethnic minority background. I think for myself, I grew up sort of code switching, which is not the best way to be, but I grew up being able to be half English and half Iranian. So, I find that okay. But certainly, for other people that would be quite a lonely place, I imagine, and I can imagine that鈥檚 the reason why they would look at different industries let alone different companies. And again, it鈥檚 going to take time, isn鈥檛 it?

 

Do you think we are getting to grips with the scale of the challenge the industry faces from an equality and diversity perspective?

DJ: That鈥檚 a problem in itself. There is research being done on ethnic minorities and women, because that鈥檚 the data that鈥檚 collected. I really think that once you start collecting it from other groups, that might start painting something that is certainly not a good picture. So to truly get to grips with this we need to start collecting data. And we have to be honest.

We must tell people why we鈥檙e collecting this data. Because if you鈥檙e in an industry that鈥檚 completely non-diverse, let鈥檚 be frank, you鈥檇 be really paranoid about why they want this information. Why do they want to know my sexuality or if I鈥檝e got disability? Because if they look around the office or the construction site there鈥檚 not going to be many other people that they can associate with. So, the best way to do it is to be honest and say the reason for collecting it is because we鈥檝e been terrible about getting diverse workforces. We need to identify how many numbers we have, so we can work towards something and benchmark and know that we鈥檙e doing better or worse.

So, do you think that is sort of like an industry wide approach that could be taken? And how would that sort of look?

DJ: I鈥檝e really been thinking about it hard recently because I鈥檝e seen different bodies publishing about what we need to do on diversity. But it鈥檇 be good if one or two of those bodies were to get together. I think doing it on a company basis isn鈥檛 the most productive way. I mean, fortunately, in the EDI space, people tend to collaborate when it comes to this. But obviously, it鈥檚 always better if you have an overarching body come in.

I would love to see someone like the Royal Institute of Charteres Surveyors start actually enforcing it, saying 鈥淵ou know what, if you want to have your accreditation on our website, then we need to know you鈥檝e got X, Y, and Z鈥�. I would say that as a minimum, you鈥檇 want to know that they鈥檙e collecting the data, that they鈥檝e got EDI policies in place and that they鈥檙e willing to learn about EDI. That鈥檇 be amazing. We鈥檝e all got insurance hoops and professional qualification hoops to jump through, why not have something with equality, diversity and inclusion as well?

That would be really interesting. How would you this is set up? Would they be hard and fast targets, or would there be an intermediary stage?

DJ: I think there鈥檚 always going to be a period of you needing to demonstrate that you鈥檙e working towards this, that you鈥檙e working towards putting these policies in place. That鈥檚 why I mentioned willing to learn, you need to be willing to demonstrate you want to cooperate in the space and be upskilled and your staff are working towards this.

There has to be one or two professional bodies coming together, I think to really take a hold of it. And then eventually we can have firm requirements in place, even if that sounds drastic now. That might be say having 30% or 40% of women on your senior leadership team and 20% ethnic minorities. That sounds drastic saying that but 50% of society is women, isn鈥檛 it? And with a firm in central London for example, some areas have 40% ethnic minorities. But firms don鈥檛 have anybody in your leadership teams that are women or ethnic minority and you鈥檙e out there building and designing the structures in those areas. To me, that doesn鈥檛 make sense.

On that point, how does EDI interplay with the idea of social value?

DJ: At a lot of firms the buzzword at the minute is social value. And we need to look at how we are doing that, how that can tie into diversifying our industry. We need to go into areas and schools that we know have high levels of ethnic minority populations, as an example, and talk to them about the construction industry. And we need to try to not send three white men to those panels, we need to try to think of different people to send.

We could also be asking the people in question. We can do surveys of people in schools, but I think there needs to be a far-reaching, focused effort to engage with 14鈥�15-year-olds in schools and say: 鈥淒o you know what the construction industry is? Is there anything about it that you like? What would attract you to an industry?鈥� We should do that; I don鈥檛 think that鈥檚 ever been done.

To wrap things up, do you think as an industry there is an appetite for change?

DJ: Well 18 months ago, when I started in this role, if there was something that I didn鈥檛 agree with, I would never speak up about it, I would just ping an email around or maybe just casually suggest a change. But I think there鈥檚 so much momentum, especially because of the pandemic and the state of the economy, about things just needing to be more equal and fairer. That鈥檚 really driven me to want to speak up more.

I went to an awards show a couple of months ago and I was on stage presenting an award about ED&I, and I looked around and there鈥檚 just a sea of white men at the front. And I called it out while I was on stage, I had a script to stick to but I called it out saying that our construction industry needs to do a lot better. I said people needed to look around the room and think about who they鈥檝e invited and why. It could have been other people in your company that came there. And I got a clap. I thought I was going to get dead silence.

I mean that probably shows that there is at least some propensity for change and that there is appetite for it? Even if it is happening slowly.

DJ: I would have said a couple of years ago the appetite for change wasn鈥檛 there, but I think the noise and the momentum from employees and so many young people coming into the industry now is that they want these things to happen. So, I think there is now a call for senior leaders to have a look at their company and look within themselves to try to really gauge, do they really want this change? Because I see a lot of policies out there but I don鈥檛 see a lot of change. Let鈥檚 just hope we really are turning a corner.